Showing posts with label aganna sutra. Show all posts
Showing posts with label aganna sutra. Show all posts

Thursday, September 5, 2024

Before Big Bang: science has new theory

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What happened before the Big Bang?
It's not really space. But enjoy this artist's rendering as if it were (Shutterstock/Live Science)
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(Live Science) The Big Bang is commonly thought of as the start of it all: About 13.8 billion years ago, the observable universe went boom and expanded [popped] into being. [It did not expand into something, as there was nothing to expand into prior to that.]

But what were things like before the Big Bang? Short answer: We don't know. Long answer: It could have been a lot of things, each mind-bending in its own way.
The Buddha (Gandhara)
[What was the universe/multiverse like before the before? Only the Buddha knows, and some high-plane devas, and the people he told, and the rishis or "seers" of the Vedas and other knowledge books, given what they saw and were told by extraterrestrial visitors to the Indus Valley Civilization, Emperor Ashoka's Bharat/India. Science does not really want to know for knowing's sake but to argue and posit and prove with the evidence it finds convincing, never mind the actual Truth. Because what if the answer is too weird, like this all being a samsaric simulation, a trap, an endless cycle of karma and becoming in a loop, like Neitzche's nightmare scenario?]
In the beginning

The first thing to understand is what the Big Bang actually was. "The Big Bang is a moment in time, not a point in space," said Sean Carroll, a theoretical physicist at the California Institute of Technology (Caltech.edu) and author of The Big Picture: On the Origins of Life, Meaning and the Universe Itself (Dutton, 2016).
  • [It is dumb for science to say there was a Big Bang and then define it as they do. It is like saying, "Religion and spirituality are stupid because they believe in miracles. We don't. So just give us this one miracle at the beginning, unexplained and inexplicable, and we promise not to resort to any more miracles after that. We'll explain everything else and define what is an isn't reality with reason and constructs hammered out by mere reasoning and then constantly update that picture with new ideas, theories, and assumptions, never getting anywhere but having fun and making lots of money along the way, unlike those stupid religionists and magicians talking their nonsense and mysticism.]
  • Stern opposition faced in Deep Red States pushing Christianity in public schools
  • Space photo of the week: Milky Way's galactic twin captured by dark energy camera
[There's a new beginning! It's called the Big Bounce, which isn't exactly new

The gods did it.
The Big Bang may not have been the beginning of the universe, according to a theory of cosmology that suggests the universe can “bounce” between phases of contraction and expansion. If that theory is true, then it could have profound implications about the nature of the cosmos, including two of its most mysterious components -- black holes and dark matter.

With this in mind, a recent study suggests that dark matter could be composed of black holes formed during a transition from the universe's last contraction to the current expansion phase, which occurred before the Big Bang.

You can be happy. Here's how. Grab some paper
If this hypothesis holds, the gravitational waves generated during the black hole formation process might be detectable by future gravitational wave observatories, providing a way to confirm this dark matter generation scenario. (Ergo, we just figured out a way to make a lot more money, funding new kinds of super-expensive observatories. And while we're at it, we need a bigger electron collider.)

Observations of stellar movements in galaxies and the cosmic microwave background — an afterglow of the Big Bang — indicate that about 80% of all matter in the universe is dark matter, a substance that doesn't reflect, absorb, or emit light (even though it's all around us, not just off in deep space where we can't see it because it's so far away).

Oh, Buddha, give me some insight it all.
Despite its abundance, scientists have not yet identified what dark matter is made of. In the new study, researchers explored a scenario where dark matter consists of primordial black holes formed from density fluctuations that occurred during the universe's last contraction phase, not long before the period of expansion that we observe now.

They published their findings in June in the Journal of Cosmology and Astroparticle Physics. More:
[Back to the old theory]
Demiurge: Check it out, Chugs. Quiick, give me your lighter. I'm going to create something.

(Family Guy) God (Demiurge) created the universe

Thus, it's possible that the universe at the Big Bang was teeny-tiny or infinitely large, Carroll said, because there’s no way to look back in time at the stuff we can’t even see today.
  • [Dumb. All we do is look back. And there are ways of looking back, not to mention the beings who were there when it happened because the universe, this universe, is far older. And we live in a multiverse. And it is possible to know things by direct perception, but that requires purification of mind and development of the dibba cakkhu or "divine eye," the human capacity to exhibit marvelous powers of perception, even us, even now.]
All we really know is that it [It? What? The pre-universe, something was preexisting?] was very, very dense and that it very quickly got less dense.
  • Hey, Everybody, sign up for the Live Science daily newsletter now. Get the world’s most fascinating discoveries delivered straight to an inbox. By submitting your information, you agree to be legally bound to the Terms & Conditions and Privacy Policy and are aged 16+.
As a corollary, there really isn't anything outside the universe, because the universe is, by definition, everything.
  • [Unless we mean the multiverse, but they're separate, except for trans-dimensional travelers who have found a way to break through to other dimensions and universes, but they haven't told us how to do it, I mean they've told us, but they haven't gotten it published in a peer-reviewed journal of our liking and raked over the coals by friends of ours in the elite circles of The Academy who are gatekeepers to keep Truth and the riff-raff out, so until then there is just no way to be outside the All which is the Everything and the only Reality that we know of and can ever know.]
Question. Answer. I've got it!
So at the Big Bang, everything was denser and hotter than it is now, but there was no more an "outside" of it than there is today. As tempting as it is to take a godlike view and imagine you could stand in a void and look at the scrunched-up baby universe right before the Big Bang, that would be impossible, Carroll said.

The universe didn't expand into space; space [you know, that stuff that is nothing but holds everything, defined as the delimiting distance between things, yeah, that stuff] itself expanded.

"No matter where you are in the universe, if you trace yourself back 14 billion years, you come to this point where it was extremely hot, dense, and rapidly expanding," he said.

No one knows exactly what was happening in the universe until 1 second after the Big Bang, when the universe cooled off enough for protons and neutrons to collide and stick together.

Many scientists [that we approve of and never mind the others] do think that the universe went through a process of exponential expansion called inflation during that first second. This would have smoothed out the fabric of space-time and could explain why matter is so evenly distributed in the universe today.

Before the bang
Secret life before the BIG bang
It's possible that before the Big Bang, the universe was an infinite stretch of an ultrahot, dense material, persisting in a steady state until, for some reason, the Big Bang occurred.

This extra-dense universe [the previous universe before the current universe] may have been governed by quantum mechanics, the physics of the extremely small scale, Carroll said.

The Big Bang, then, would have represented the moment that classical physics took over as the major driver of the universe's evolution. [What is Quantum Mechanics?]

Try hedonism. I liked it.
For [horndog atheist] Stephen Hawking, this moment was all that mattered: Before the Big Bang, he said, events are unmeasurable, and thus undefined. Hawking called this the no-boundary proposal: Time and space, he said, are finite, but they don’t have any boundaries or starting or ending points, the same way that the planet Earth is finite but has no edge.

"Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory and say that time began at the Big Bang," he said in an interview on the National Geographic show "StarTalk" in 2018.

Or perhaps there was something else before the Big Bang that's worth pondering. One idea is that the Big Bang isn't the beginning of time, but rather that it was a moment of symmetry.

In this idea, prior to the Big Bang, there was another universe, identical to this one but with entropy increasing toward the past instead of toward the future. Increasing entropy, or increasing disorder in a system, is essentially the arrow of time, Carroll said, so in this mirror universe, time would run opposite to time in the modern universe and our universe would be in the past.
  • [Strangely, the mathematical functions and Einstein's equations do not have an arrow and therefore time can run in either direction without violating math rules or fundamental quantum mechanics, what with retro-causation even being shown to possibly exist.]
E Questions, Buddha Answers
Proponents of this theory also suggest that other properties of the universe would be flip-flopped in this mirror universe.

For example, physicist David Sloan wrote in the University of Oxford Science Blog, asymmetries in molecules and ions (called chiralities) would be in opposite orientations to what they are in our universe.

A related theory holds that the Big Bang wasn't the beginning of everything, but rather a moment in time when the universe switched from a period of contraction to a period of expansion.
  • [Ah, this would be in line with Buddhist and Vedic cosmology and the views of the other Dharmic religions, which speak of periods of expansion and contraction within a great aeon or maha yuga, a staggering period of time humans had no business imagining if it were not for space beings filling their minds with explanations of what goes on out there in boundless reaches of space known as the akasha deva loka or "world of light beings in the sky."]
This "Big Bounce" notion suggests that there could be infinite Big Bangs as the universe expands, contracts, and expands again.
  • [Ah, now we're getting somewhere, and the Indian books of the subcontinent have been reaching Western scientists by various means after all. This is exactly what the East posits, not a finite first point or cause, but only cycling that neither has a need for a beginning nor any end in sight. There is. And when is it? Now, the eternal now.]
The problem with these ideas, Carroll said, is that there's no explanation [that I know of] for why or how an expanding universe would contract and return to a low-entropy state. [But, of course, I haven't read the ancient texts, have I?]

Let's send this one up and see if it flies.
Carroll and his colleague Jennifer Chen have their own pre-Big Bang vision.

In 2004, the physicists suggested that perhaps the universe as we know it is the offspring of a parent universe from which a bit of space-time has ripped off.

It's like a radioactive nucleus decaying, Carroll said: When a nucleus decays, it spits out an alpha or beta particle. The parent universe could do the same thing, except instead of particles, it spits out baby universes, perhaps infinitely.

"It's just a quantum fluctuation that lets it happen," Carroll said. These baby universes are "literally parallel universes," Carroll said, and don't interact with or influence one another.

If that all sounds rather trippy [then you have been smoking 5-MeO-DMT or regular DMT or], it is — because scientists don't yet have a way to peer back to even the instant of the Big Bang, much less what came before it.

There's room to explore, though, Carroll said. The detection of gravitational waves from powerful galactic collisions in 2015 opens the possibility that these waves could be used to solve fundamental mysteries about the universes' expansion in that first crucial second.

Theoretical physicists also have work to do, Carroll said, like making more-precise predictions about how quantum forces like quantum gravity might work.

"We don't even know what we're looking for," Carroll said, "until we have a theory."

Sunday, December 31, 2023

SUTRA: Mystic Wonders and Origins

T.W. Rhys Davids (trans.) suttacentral.net, Long Discourses of the Buddha, Pāṭika Sutta, (DN 24) "Mystic Wonders and the Origin of Things"; Eds., Wisdom Quarterly

It's a new year and a new beginning, so let's go back in time a century or more, when the British began translating Buddhist sutras into English for the West. One of the greatest translators was T.W. Rhys Davids (May 12, 1843–Dec. 27, 1922), who founded the Pali Text Society, and later his wife Caroline Augusta Foley or C.A.F. Rhys Davids (1857-1942). He and Christmas Humphreys have an Old Timey way of writing that is very British and better left mostly intact as if we were meant to be read only at Eton and Oxford and maybe Cambridge.

Thus have I heard. The Exalted One [Bhagava, the Buddha] was once staying among the Mallas, at Anupiya, one of their towns.

Now the Exalted One, having robed himself in the early morning, put on his cloak and took his bowl, and entered the town for alms.

And he thought: “It is too early for me now to go through Anupiya for alms.

I might go to the pleasance where Bhaggava the Wanderer [generic name for the Sannyasin Potter] dwells, and call upon Bhaggava.”

So the Exalted One went to the pleasance and to the place where Bhaggava the Wanderer was.

Then Bhaggava spake thus to the Exalted One: “Let my venerable the Exalted One come near.

Welcome to the Exalted One!

It is long since the Exalted One has taken the opportunity to come our way.

May it please you, Sir, to be seated; here is a seat made ready.”

The Exalted One sat down thereon, and Bhaggava, taking a certain low stool, sat down beside him.

So seated, Bhaggava the Wanderer spake thus to the Exalted One: “Some days ago, venerable, a good many days ago, Sunakkhatta of the Licchavis called on me and spake thus: ‘I have now given up the Exalted One, Bhaggava.
I am remaining no longer under him (as my teacher).’

Is the fact really so, just as he said?”

“It is just so, Bhaggava, as Sunakkhatta of the Licchavis said.

Some days ago, Bhaggava, a good many days ago, Sunakkhatta, the Licchavi, came to call on me, and spake thus: ‘Sir, I now give up the Exalted One.

I will henceforth remain no longer under him (as my teacher).’

When he told me this, I said to him: ‘But now, Sunakkhatta, have I ever said to you: “Come, Sunakkhatta, live under me (as my pupil)?”’

‘No, Sir, you have not.’

‘Or have you ever said to me: “Sir, I would fain dwell under the Exalted One (as my teacher)?”’

‘No, Sir, I have not.’

‘But if I said not the one, and you said not the other, what are you and what am I that you talk of giving up?

See, foolish one, in how far the fault here is your own.’

‘Well, but Sir, the Exalted One works me no mystic wonders surpassing the power of ordinary men.’

I will work mystic wonders!
‘Why, now, Sunakkhatta, have I ever said to you: “Come, take me as your teacher, Sunakkhatta, and I will work for you mystic wonders surpassing the power of ordinary men?”’

‘You have not, Sir.’

‘Or have you ever said to me: “Sir, I would fain take the Exalted One as my teacher, for he will work for me mystic wonders beyond the powers of ordinary men”?’

‘I have not, Sir.’

‘But if I said not the one, and you said not the other, what are you and what am I, foolish man, that you talk of giving up?

What think you, Sunakkhatta?

Whether mystic wonders beyond the power of ordinary man are wrought, or whether they are not, is the object for which I teach the Norm [Dhamma] this: that it leads to the thorough destruction of ill for the doer thereof?’

‘Whether, Sir, they are so wrought or not, that is indeed the object for which the Norm is taught by the Exalted One.’

‘If then, Sunakkhatta, it matters not to that object whether mystic wonders are wrought or not, of what use to you would be the working of them?

See, foolish one, in how far the fault here is your own.’

‘But, Sir, the Exalted One does not reveal to me the beginning of things.’

‘Why now, Sunakkhatta, have I ever said to you: “Come, Sunakkhatta, be my disciple and I will reveal to you the beginning of things?”’

‘Sir, you have not.’

‘Or have you ever said to me: “I will become the Exalted One’s pupil, for he will reveal to me the beginning of things”?’

‘Sir, I have not.’

‘But if I have not said the one and you have not said the other, what are you and what am I, foolish man, that you talk of giving up on that account?

What think you, Sunakkhatta?

Whether the beginning of things be revealed, or whether it be not, is the object for which I teach the Norm this: that it leads to the thorough destruction of ill for the doer thereof?’

‘Whether, Sir, they are revealed or not, that is indeed the object for which the Norm is taught by the Exalted One.’

‘If then, Sunakkhatta, it matters not to that object whether the beginning of things be revealed, or whether it be not, of what use to you would it be to have the beginning of things revealed?

See, foolish one, in how far the fault here is your own.

In many ways have you, Sunakkhatta, spoken my praises among the Vajjians, saying:

“Thus is the Exalted One; he is an Arahant fully awakened; wisdom he has and righteousness; he is the Well-Farer; he has knowledge of the worlds; he is the supreme driver of men willing to be tamed; the teacher of devas and men; the Awakened and Exalted One.”

In such wise have you been wont, among the Vajjians, to utter praise of me.

In many ways have you, Sunakkhatta, spoken the praises of the Dhamma among the Vajjians: “Well proclaimed by the Exalted One is the Dhamma as bearing on this present life, not involving time, inviting all to come and see, to be understood by every wise man for himself.”

In such wise have you been wont, among the Vajjians, to utter praise of the Dhamma.

In many ways have you, Sunakkhatta, spoken the praises of the Order among the Vajjians: “Well are they trained, the Order of the Exalted One’s disciples, even the four branches thereof.

The eight classes of individuals well trained in uprightness, in principles and in courtesy.

This Order should be respected and revered; gifts should be given it, and homage; for it is the world’s unsurpassed field (for sowing) merit.”

In such wise have you been wont, among the Vajjians, to utter praise of the Order.

I tell you Sunakkhatta, I make known to you Sunakkhatta, that there will be those that shall say concerning you thus: “Sunakkhatta of the Licchavis was not able to live the holy life under Gotama the recluse.

And he, not being able to adhere to it, hath renounced the discipline and turned to lower things.”’

Thus, Bhaggava, did Sunakkhatta of the Licchavis, addressed by me, depart from this Doctrine and Discipline, as one doomed to disaster and purgatory.”

“At one time, Bhaggava, I was staying among the Bumus.

Uttarakā is a village of theirs, and having dressed early one morning, I afterwards took my bowl, put on my robe, and went into Uttarakā for alms.

Now, at that time, a cynic there, Bandylegs the Khattiya, was wont to behave like a dog, walking on all fours, or sprawling on the ground and taking up food, whether hard or soft, with his mouth only (without using his hands).

Sunakkhatta, seeing him act thus, thought: ‘How truly admirable does he look, the holy man, the recluse creeping on all fours, or sprawling on the ground, taking up food, whether hard or soft, with his mouth only.’

Then I, Bhaggava, knowing what was in his mind, said to him: ‘Do you, O foolish man, confess yourself as following the son of the Sakyas?’

‘What does the Exalted One mean, Sir, in saying this to me?’

‘Did you not think, Sunakkhatta, as you looked at that naked Cynic, Kora the Khattiya, on all fours, sprawling on the earth, taking up his food, whether hard or soft, with his mouth only: “How admirable were it to be a holy man like that”?’

‘Yes, venerable, I did.

What then!

Does the Exalted One begrudge Arahantship in others?’

‘Nay, foolish man.

I begrudge in no one Arahantship.

It is only in you that this vicious opinion has arisen.

Put it away.

Let it not become a lasting source of harm and ill to you.

This naked cynic, Kora the Khattiya, whom you, Sunakkhatta, fancy so admirable an arahant, will die seven days hence of an epilepsy, and dying he will be reborn as one of the Kālakañjas, the very lowest of the Asūra groups.

As dead, he will be laid out on a heap of birana grass in the charnel field.

You might go up to him, if you wish, and ask him: “Do you know your own destiny, friend Kora?”

Perchance he will reply: “I know my own destiny, friend Sunakkhatta.

There are Asūras called Kalakanjas, the very lowest of the Asūra groups—’Tis among them I am reborn.”’

Thereat, Bhaggava, Sunakkhatta of the Licchavis, went up to the cynic, Kora the Khattiya, and spake thus to him: ‘Friend Kora the Khattiya, the Samaṇa Gotama has declared that on the seventh day hence, the naked ascetic, Kora the Khattiya, will die, and dying he will be reborn as one of the Kalakanjas, the very lowest of the Asūra groups.’

As dead, he will be laid on a heap of birana grass in the charnel field.

Wherefore, friend Kora the Khattiya, you should partake of food with great moderation; you should drink liquids with great moderation; so that the word of the Samaṇa Gotama may prove wrong.’

Then Sunakkhatta, so firmly did he disbelieve the Tathāgata, counted up the seven days one after another; but, Bhaggava, on the seventh day, Kora the Khattiya died of an epilepsy, and dying was reborn as one of the Kalakanjas, the very lowest of the Asūra groups; and as dead, was laid out on a heap of birana grass in the charnel field.

Now Sunakkhatta heard, Bhaggava, that Kora the Khattiya lay dead in the charnel field on a heap of birana grass.

And he went thither where the corpse was lying, and thrice he smote the naked ascetic with his hand, saying: ‘Do you know, friend Kora the Khattiya, what has been your destiny?’

Then Bhaggava, Kora the Khattiya, rubbing his back with his hand, raised himself up and said: ‘I know, friend Sunakkhatta, what is my destiny.

Among the Kalakanjas, the very lowest of the Asūra groups—there am I reborn.’

So saying, he fell back supine.

Thereupon, Bhaggava, Sunakkhatta the Licchavi came to me, and saluting me, sat down beside me.

So sitting, I spake to him thus: ‘What think you, Sunakkhatta?

Has it happened to the cynic, Kora the Khattiya, even as I declared to you, or otherwise?’

‘It has happened to him even as the Exalted One declared to me, not otherwise.’

‘What think you, Sunakkhatta?

This being so, has a mystic wonder by power beyond that of ordinary men been wrought, or has it not?’

‘Surely, sir, this being so, such a mystic wonder has been wrought.’

‘And is it then to me, you foolish man, who have thus by power beyond that of ordinary men, wrought a mystic wonder, that you say: “Sir, the Exalted One works me no miracles with his superhuman gifts?”

See, foolish man, how far you have committed yourself.’

Thus, Bhaggava, did Sunakkhatta of the Licchavis, addressed by me, depart from this Doctrine and Discipline, as one doomed to disaster and to purgatory.”

“At one time, Bhaggava, I was staying at Vesalī in the Great Wood, at the Gable Hall.

Now at that time there was a naked ascetic residing at Vesalī, named Kandara-masuka, and great was his gain and his fame in the Vajjian home.

He had vowed and taken upon himself seven rules of life, to wit: ‘So long as I live I will be of the Naked Ascetics, I will put on no garment; so long as I live, I will be a devotee, devoted to a life of chastity; so long as I live, I will maintain myself by spirituous drink and by flesh, eating no rice-broth or gruel;

I will never go beyond the Udena shrine on the east of Vesalī; the Gotamaka shrine on the south; the Sattamba shrine on the west, and the Bahuputta shrine on the north.’

It was because of his having laid upon himself these seven rules of life that he had gain and fame beyond all others in the Vajjian home.

Now, Bhaggava, Sunakkhatta of the Licchavis went to call on Kandara-masuka and asked him a question.

Kandara-masuka did not follow the question, and not following, manifested resentment, dislike, and anger.

Then it occurred to Sunakkhatta: ‘We might come into conflict with the admirable arahant recluse.

Let nothing happen that would make for lasting harm and ill to us.’

Thereupon, Bhaggava, Sunakkhatta the Licchavi came to call upon me, and saluting me, he sat down beside me and thus I spake to him: ‘Do you, O foolish man, still confess yourself as following the son of the Sakyas?’

‘What does the Exalted One mean in saying that?’

‘Why, Sunakkhatta, did you not go up to the naked ascetic, Kandara-masuka and ask him a question which he did not follow, and over which he manifested anger, dislike, and resentment?

And did it not occur to you: “We might come into conflict with the admirable arahant and recluse.”

Let nothing happen that would make for lasting harm and ill to us?”’

‘It was even so, Sir.

Does the Exalted One begrudge arahantship in anyone?’

‘Nay, foolish man, I begrudge in no one Arahantship.

To you only has this vicious opinion arisen.

Get rid of it.

Let that not make for lasting harm and ill to you.

This naked ascetic Kandara-masuka, whom you think so admirable an arahant recluse, will ere long end his days clothed and married, his diet rice-broth and rice-gruel; his range past all shrines in Vesalī, and he will die fallen from his fame.’

And ere long, Bhaggava, that ascetic ended his days clothed and married, his diet rice-broth and rice-gruel; his range past all shrines in Vesalī, and died fallen from his fame.

Now Sunakkhatta heard that Kandara-masuka, the ascetic, had ended his days clothed and married, his diet rice-broth and rice-gruel; his range past all shrines in Vesalī, and died fallen from his fame.

Thereupon he came to call upon me, and saluting me, he sat down beside me, and I spake to him thus: ‘What think you, Sunakkhatta?

Has it happened to the naked ascetic, Kandara-masuka, even as I declared to you, or otherwise?’

‘It has happened to him even as the Exalted One declared to me, not otherwise.’

‘What think you, Sunakkhatta?

This being so, has a mystic wonder by power surpassing that of ordinary men been wrought, or has none been wrought?’

‘Surely, Sir, this being so, such a mystic wonder has been wrought.’

‘And is it then to me, you foolish man, who have thus by power surpassing that of ordinary men, wrought a mystic wonder, that you say: “Sir, the Exalted One works no such mystic wonder.”

See, foolish man, how far you have committed yourself.’

Thus, Bhaggava, did Sunakkhatta the Licchavi, addressed by me, depart from this Doctrine and Discipline, as one doomed to disaster and to purgatory.”

“At one time, Bhaggava, I was staying there at Vesalī, in the Great Wood, at the Gable Hall.

Now at that time, the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, was residing at Vesalī, and great was his gain and his fame in the Vajjian home.

He held forth thus in the Vesalī assemblies: ‘Both the Samaṇa Gotama and I affirm that we have insight.

Now it becomes one who affirms this to show, in virtue of his insight, mystic wonders, by his extraordinary gifts.

If the Samaṇa Gotama would come half-way, I would meet him half-way.

Then we could both work a mystic wonder by our extraordinary gifts.

If the Samaṇa Gotama work one such mystic wonder, I will work two.

If he work two, I will work four.

If he will work four, I will work eight.

Thus, to whatever extent he may perform, I will perform double.’

Then, Bhaggava, Sunakkhatta the Licchavi came to call on me, and saluting me, sat down beside me.

And so seated, he said this: ‘The naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, sir, held forth thus in the Vesalī assemblies: “Both the Samaṇa Gotama and I affirm that we have insight.

Now it becomes one who affirms this to show, in virtue of his insight, mystic wonders, by his extraordinary gifts.

If the Samaṇa Gotama would come half-way, I would meet him half-way.

Then we could both work a mystic wonder by our extraordinary gifts.

If the Samaṇa Gotama work one such mystic wonder, I will work two.

If he work two, I will work four.

If he will work four, I will work eight.

Thus, to whatever extent he may perform, I will perform double.”’

And when he had thus spoken, Bhaggava, I said to Sunakkhatta: ‘Incompetent, Sunakkhatta, is the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, to meet me face to face, if he withdraw not those words, if he put not away that idea, if he renounce not that opinion.

If he thinks that, holding to those words, to that idea, maintaining that opinion, he would come to meet the Samaṇa Gotama, his head would split asunder.’

‘Let the Exalted One take heed to what he says.

Let the Wellfarer take heed to what he says.’

‘What mean you, Sunakkhatta, that you say this to me?’

“Let the Exalted One take heed to what he says.

Let the Wellfarer take heed to what he says.”

‘It may be, sir, that the Exalted One’s words convey an absolute statement respecting what would happen, in any case, to Pāṭika’s son, should he, as such, come to meet the Samaṇa Gotama.

But Pāṭika’s son might come in an altered shape to meet the Exalted One, and that would render the Exalted One’s words false.’

‘Now, Sunakkhatta, would a Tathāgata utter any speech that was ambiguous?’

‘Well now, Sir, is it by the Exalted One’s own discernment that he knows: “Incompetent is the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, to meet me face to face, if he withdraw not those words, if he put not away that idea, if he renounce not that opinion.

If he thinks that, holding to those words, to that idea, maintaining that opinion, he would come to meet the Samaṇa Gotama, his head would split asunder,” or has some deva announced: “Incompetent is the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, to meet me face to face, if he withdraw not those words, if he put not away that idea, if he renounce not that opinion.

If he thinks that, holding to those words, to that idea, maintaining that opinion, he would come to meet the Samaṇa Gotama, his head would split asunder,” to the Tathāgata?’

‘I have both discerned in my mind, Sunakkhatta: “Incompetent is the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, to meet me face to face, if he withdraw not those words, if he put not away that idea, if he renounce not that opinion.

If he thinks that, holding to those words, to that idea, maintaining that opinion, he would come to meet the Samaṇa Gotama, his head would split asunder,” and a deva has also announced to me: “Incompetent is the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, to meet me face to face, if he withdraw not those words, if he put not away that idea, if he renounce not that opinion.

If he thinks that, holding to those words, to that idea, maintaining that opinion, he would come to meet the Samaṇa Gotama, his head would split asunder,” for Ajita, general of the Licchavis, who died the other day, has been reborn in the realm of the Three-and-Thirty.

He came to me and declared this to me: “Shameless, Sir, is the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son; a liar, Sir, is Pāṭika’s son.

He made this statement concerning me among the Vajjians: ‘Ajita, the general of the Licchavis, is reborn in the Great Purgatory.’

But I am not reborn there, sir; I am reborn in the realm of the Thirty-and-Three.

Shameless is Pāṭika’s son, Sir, and a liar; incompetent is he to meet Samaṇa Gotama face to face, if he withdraw not those words, if he put not away that idea, if he renounce not that opinion.

If he thinks that, holding to those words, to that idea, maintaining that opinion, he would come to meet the Samaṇa Gotama, his head would split asunder.”

Thus, Sunakkhatta, have I both discerned in my mind: “Incompetent is the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, to meet me face to face, if he withdraw not those words, if he put not away that idea, if he renounce not that opinion.

If he thinks that, holding to those words, to that idea, maintaining that opinion, he would come to meet the Samaṇa Gotama, his head would split asunder,” and a deva has also announced to me: “Incompetent is the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, to meet me face to face, if he withdraw not those words, if he put not away that idea, if he renounce not that opinion.

If he thinks that, holding to those words, to that idea, maintaining that opinion, he would come to meet the Samaṇa Gotama, his head would split asunder.”

Now Sunakkhatta, when I have gone to Vesalī on my round for alms, and have dined, and am on the way back, I will go to Pāṭika’s son’s Park.

Tell him, then, Sunakkhatta, whatever you think right.’

Then I, Bhaggava, having dressed early, and taken my bowl and robe, entered Vesalī for alms.

And after my meal, as I returned, I went into Pāṭika’s son’s park for siesta.

Then, Bhaggava, Sunakkhatta the Licchavi, in a great hurry, went into Vesalī, and went to all the most distinguished of the Licchavis and told them saying: ‘Friends, that Exalted One, on returning from his round for alms, and after dining, has gone to Pāṭika’s son’s park for siesta.

Come forth, sirs, come forth.

There is going to be wonder-working by the superhuman gifts of admirable recluses.’

Then those most distinguished among the Licchavis thought: ‘There is going to be wonder-working by the superhuman gifts of admirable recluses.

Come then, let’s go.’

And wherever there were eminent brahmins and wealthy householders of position, who had become Wanderers or brahmins of different sects, there he went and told them saying: ‘Friends, that Exalted One, on returning from his round for alms, and after dining, has gone to Pāṭika’s son’s park for siesta.

Come forth, sirs, come forth.

There is going to be wonder-working by the superhuman gifts of admirable recluses.’

And those most eminent brahmins and wealthy householders of position, who had become Wanderers or brahmins of different sects thought: ‘There is going to be wonder-working by the superhuman gifts of admirable recluses.

Come then, let’s go.’

So, Bhaggava, those eminent Licchavis and distinguished brahmins and wealthy householders of position, now Wanderers or brahmins of different sects, all repaired to the park of the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son.

And they formed an assembly of several hundred, nay, of several thousand persons.

Now Pāṭika’s son heard that all these people were come out and that the Samaṇa Gotama himself was sitting, during siesta, in his park, and hearing of it, fear came upon him and trembling and creeping of the flesh.

And thus afeared, agitated, and in dread, he went away to the Tinduka Pollards, the Wanderers’ Park.

Then that company, Bhaggava, heard that he had gone thither in a panic, and they charged a certain man, saying: ‘Come, my man, go to the Tinduka Pollards and find Pāṭika’s son, the naked ascetic and say this to him: “We have come out, friend Pāṭika’s son; there are come out many distinguished Licchavis and brahmins and wealthy householders, and various teachers among brahmins and recluses.

And the Samaṇa Gotama himself is sitting, during siesta, in your reverence’s park.

You, friend Pāṭika’s son, have delivered this speech in the assembly at Vesalī:

‘Both the Samaṇa Gotama and I affirm that we have insight.

Now it becomes one who affirms this to show, in virtue of his insight, mystic wonders, by his extraordinary gifts.

If the Samaṇa Gotama would come half-way, I would meet him half-way.

Then we could both work a mystic wonder by our extraordinary gifts.

If the Samaṇa Gotama work one such mystic wonder, I will work two.

If he work two, I will work four.

If he will work four, I will work eight.

Thus, to whatever extent he may perform, I will perform double.’

Come forth then half-way, friend Pāṭika’s son; the Samaṇa Gotama has come all the first half and is seated in your reverence’s park for siesta.”’

‘Very good’, said that man, consenting, and he went to the Tinduka Pollards, the Wanderers’ Park, found Pāṭika’s son, and said this: ‘We have come out, friend Pāṭika’s son; there are come out many distinguished Licchavis and brahmins and wealthy householders, and various teachers among brahmins and recluses.

And the Samaṇa Gotama himself is sitting, during siesta, in your reverence’s park.

You, friend Pāṭika’s son, have delivered this speech in the assembly at Vesalī:

“Both the Samaṇa Gotama and I affirm that we have insight.

Now it becomes one who affirms this to show, in virtue of his insight, mystic wonders, by his extraordinary gifts.

If the Samaṇa Gotama would come half-way, I would meet him half-way.

Then we could both work a mystic wonder by our extraordinary gifts.

If the Samaṇa Gotama work one such mystic wonder, I will work two.

If he work two, I will work four.

If he will work four, I will work eight.

Thus, to whatever extent he may perform, I will perform double.”

Come forth then half-way, friend Pāṭika’s son; the Samaṇa Gotama has come all the first half and is seated in your reverence’s park for siesta.’

When this was told him, Bhaggava, the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, saying: ‘I am coming, friend, I am coming,’ writhed about then and there and was unable to rise from his seat.

Then said the man to him: ‘How now, friend Pāṭika’s son?

Are your hams stuck to your seat, or is your seat stuck to your hams?

You say: “I am coming, friend, I am coming”, yet you writhe about and are not able to rise from your seat.’

And though this was said to him, Pāṭika’s son repeated: ‘I am coming, friend, I am coming,’ but only writhed about, unable to rise.

Now when the man recognized Pāṭika’s son’s discomfiture, hearing his words and seeing his incapacity, he went to the assembly and told them, saying: ‘The naked ascetic Pāṭika’s son seems discomfited.

He says: “I am coming, friend, I am coming,” but he only writhes about as he sits and is unable to get up.

At these words, Bhaggava, I said to the assembly: ‘Incompetent, friends, is the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, to meet me face to face, if he withdraw not those words, if he put not away that idea, if he renounce not that opinion.

If he thinks that, holding to those words, to that idea, maintaining that opinion, he would come to meet the Samaṇa Gotama, his head would split asunder.’

Thereupon, Bhaggava, a certain councillor of the Licchavis rose from his seat and addressed the meeting: ‘Well then, gentlemen, wait a while till I go and see whether I am able to bring the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, to this assembly.’

Then that councillor went to the Tinduka Pollards, the Wanderers’ Park, found Pāṭika’s son and summoned him to attend, saying: ‘We have come out, friend Pāṭika’s son; there are come out many distinguished Licchavis and brahmins and wealthy householders, and various teachers among brahmins and recluses.

And the Samaṇa Gotama himself is sitting, during siesta, in your reverence’s park.

You, friend Pāṭika’s son, have delivered this speech in the assembly at Vesalī:

“Both the Samaṇa Gotama and I affirm that we have insight.

Now it becomes one who affirms this to show, in virtue of his insight, mystic wonders, by his extraordinary gifts.

If the Samaṇa Gotama would come half-way, I would meet him half-way.

Then we could both work a mystic wonder by our extraordinary gifts.

If the Samaṇa Gotama work one such mystic wonder, I will work two.

If he work two, I will work four.

If he will work four, I will work eight.

Thus, to whatever extent he may perform, I will perform double.”

Come forth then half-way, friend Pāṭika’s son; the Samaṇa Gotama has come all the first half and is seated in your reverence’s park for siesta.’

If you come we will make you the victor, and cause the Samaṇa Gotama to lose.’

When this was told him, Bhaggava, the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, saying: ‘I am coming, friend, I am coming,’ writhed about then and there and was unable to rise from his seat.

Now when the councillor recognized the ascetic’s discomfiture, hearing his words and seeing his incapacity, he came to the meeting and told them, saying: ‘The naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, seems discomfited.

He says: “I am coming, friend, I am coming,” but he writhes about as he sits and is unable to get up.’

And when he had thus said, Bhaggava, I spake to the meeting and told them again: ‘Incompetent, friends, is the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, to meet me face to face, if he withdraw not those words, if he put not away that idea, if he renounce not that opinion.

If he thinks that, holding to those words, to that idea, maintaining that opinion, he would come to meet the Samaṇa Gotama, his head would split asunder.

Even if it occurred to my noble friends the Licchavis: “Let us bind Pāṭika’s son with thongs and drag him hither with ox-yokes,” Pāṭika’s son would break those thongs.

Incompetent, friends, is the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, to meet me face to face, if he withdraw not those words, if he put not away that idea, if he renounce not that opinion.

If he thinks that, holding to those words, to that idea, maintaining that opinion, he would come to meet the Samaṇa Gotama, his head would split asunder.’

Thereupon, Bhaggava, Jaliya, pupil of Wooden-Bowl rose from his seat and spoke thus to the meeting: ‘Well then, gentlemen, wait awhile till I go and see whether I am able to bring the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, to this assembly.’

Then Bhaggava, Jaliya, Wooden-Bowl’s pupil, went to the Tinduka Pollards, the Wanderers’ Park, found Pāṭika’s son, and summoned him to attend, saying: ‘We have come out, friend Pāṭika’s son; there are come out many distinguished Licchavis and brahmins and wealthy householders, and various teachers among brahmins and recluses.

And the Samaṇa Gotama himself is sitting, during siesta, in your reverence’s park.

You, friend Pāṭika’s son, have delivered this speech in the assembly at Vesalī:

“Both the Samaṇa Gotama and I affirm that we have insight.

Now it becomes one who affirms this to show, in virtue of his insight, mystic wonders, by his extraordinary gifts.

If the Samaṇa Gotama would come half-way, I would meet him half-way.

Then we could both work a mystic wonder by our extraordinary gifts.

If the Samaṇa Gotama work one such mystic wonder, I will work two.

If he work two, I will work four.

If he will work four, I will work eight.

Thus, to whatever extent he may perform, I will perform double.”

Come forth then half-way, friend Pāṭika’s son; the Samaṇa Gotama has come all the first half and is seated in your reverence’s park for siesta.’

If you come we will make you the victor, and cause the Samaṇa Gotama to lose.’

When this was told him, Bhaggava, the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, saying: ‘I am coming, friend, I am coming,’ writhed about then and there and was unable to rise from his seat.

Now when Jaliya, Wooden-Bowl’s pupil, recognized the ascetic’s discomfiture, he spake to him thus: Long ago, friend Pāṭika’s son, this idea occurred to the lion, king of the beasts:

“What if I were to make my lair near a certain jungle, so that in the evening I could issue from my lair, and stretch myself and survey the landscape, and thrice roar a lion’s roar, and go forth towards the cattle pastures.

I could slay the pick of the herd of beasts, feast on a continual diet of tender flesh, and get me back to that same lair.”

Then the lion, friend, made his lair near a certain jungle, so that in the evening he could issue from his lair, and stretch himself and survey the landscape, and thrice roar a lion’s roar, and go forth towards the cattle pastures.

And he would slay the pick of the herd of beasts, feast on a continual diet of tender flesh, and get him back to that same lair.

Now, friend Pāṭika’s son, there was an old jackal who had continually thriven on the remains of that lion’s food, and was stout and strong, and it occurred to him:

“Who am I, and who is Lion, king of the beasts?

What if I were to choose my lair near a certain jungle, so that in the evening I could issue from my lair, and stretch myself and survey the landscape, and thrice roar a lion’s roar, and go forth towards the cattle pastures?

I could slay the pick of the herd of beasts, feast on a continual diet of tender flesh, and get me back to that same lair.”

Now, friend, that old jackal chose his lair near a certain jungle, and coming forth in the evening and stretching himself, and surveying the landscape, he thought: “Thrice will I roar a lion’s roar”, and thereat he roared a jackal’s howl, a vulpine howl.

Would you compare a vile jackal’s howl with a lion’s roar?

Even so, you, friend Pāṭika’s son, living among the exploits of the Wellfarer, feeding on food left over after the Wellfarer has been served, fancy you can reach up to those who are Tathāgatas, Arahants, Buddhas Supreme!

Why, what have wretched Pāṭika’s sons in common with Tathāgatas, Arahants, Buddhas Supreme?’

Now since Jaliya, Bhaggava, was unable, even by this parable, to make the ascetic leave his seat, he went on: ‘The jackal on himself reflecting deemed: “The lion I! I am the king of beasts!” And so he roared—a puny jackal’s whine. For what is there in common ‘twixt the twain—the scurvy jackal and the lion’s roar?

Even so do you, friend Pāṭika’s son, living among the exploits of the Wellfarer, feeding on the offerings set aside for the Wellfarer, you fancy things that are to be set up against Tathāgatas, Arahants, Buddhas Supreme.

Why, what have wretched Pāṭika’s sons in common with Tathāgatas, Arahants, Buddhas Supreme?’

Now, Bhaggava, since Jaliya was unable, even by this parable, to make the ascetic leave his seat, he said this to him: ‘Roaming the pleasant woods, seeing himself Grown fat on scraps, until he sees himself no more, “A tiger I!” the jackal deems himself. But lo! He roars—a puny jackal’s howl. For what is there in common ‘twixt the twain: The scurvy jackal and the lion’s roar?

Even so do you, friend Pāṭika’s son, living among the exploits of the Wellfarer, feeding on food set aside for the Wellfarer, fancy you can set yourself up against Tathāgatas, Arahants, Buddhas Supreme!

Why, what have wretched Pāṭika’s sons in common with the Tathāgatas, Arahants, Buddhas Supreme?’

Now, Bhaggava, since Jaliya was unable, even by this parable, to make the ascetic leave his seat, he went on thus: ‘Feeding on frogs, on barnfloor mice, and on The corpses laid apart in charnel-field, In the great forest, in the lonely wood The jackal throve and fancied vain conceits: “The lion, King of all the beasts am I!” But when he roared—a puny jackal’s whine. For what is there in common ‘twixt the twain—the scurvy jackal and the lion’s roar?

Even so you, friend Pāṭika’s son, living among the exploits of the Wellfarer, feeding on food set aside for the Wellfarer, fancy things that are to be set up against Tathāgatas, Arahants, Buddhas Supreme.

What have wretched Pāṭika’s sons in common with rivals of Tathāgatas, Arahants, Buddhas Supreme?’

Now, Bhaggava, since Jaliya was unable, even by this parable, to make the ascetic leave his seat, he went back to the meeting and told them, saying: ‘The naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, seems discomfited.

He says: “I am coming, friend, I am coming,” but he writhes about as he sits, and is unable to get up.’

And when he had thus said, Bhaggava, I spake to the meeting as before: ‘Incompetent, friends, is the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, to meet me face to face, if he withdraw not those words, if he put not away that idea, if he renounce not that opinion.

If he thinks that, holding to those words, to that idea, maintaining that opinion, he would come to meet the Samaṇa Gotama, his head would split asunder.

If it occurred to my noble friends, the Licchavis: “Let us bind Pāṭika’s son with thongs and drag him hither with ox-yokes,” Pāṭika’s son would break those thongs.

Incompetent, friends, is the naked ascetic, Pāṭika’s son, to meet me face to face, if he withdraw not those words, if he put not away that idea, if he renounce not that opinion.

If he thinks that, holding to those words, to that idea, maintaining that opinion, he would come to meet the Samaṇa Gotama, his head would split asunder.’

Thereupon, Bhaggava, I taught, and incited, and aroused, and gladdened that company with religious discourse.

And when I had so done, and had set them at liberty from the great bondage, had drawn forth eighty-four thousand creatures from the great abyss, I entered on Jhāna by the method of flame, rose into the air to the height of seven palm trees, projected a flame the height of another seven palm trees, so that it blazed and glowed; and then I reappeared in the Great Wood, at the Gabled Hall.

Then, Bhaggava, Sunakkhatta, the Licchavi, came to call on me, and saluting, he sat down beside me.

To him, so sitting, I said: ‘What think you of it, Sunakkhatta?

Has it fared with Pāṭika’s son as I declared unto you, and not otherwise?’

‘It has fared with him even as the venerable, the Exalted One, declared unto me, and not otherwise.’

‘What think you of it, Sunakkhatta?

If it be even so, has a mystic wonder through superhuman gifts been wrought, or has none been wrought?’

‘Verily, Sir, it being even so, a mystic wonder through superhuman gifts has been wrought indeed.’

‘Even so do you, you foolish man say of me working mystic wonders by superhuman gifts: “The venerable, the Exalted One, works no mystic wonder with his superhuman gifts.”

Behold, O foolish man, how far you have committed yourself.’

Thus, Bhaggava, did Sunakkhatta the Licchavi, addressed by me, depart from this Doctrine and Discipline, as one doomed to disaster and to purgatory.

The ultimate beginning of things, I know, Bhaggava, and I know not only that, but more than that.

And while I know that, I do not pervert it.

And as one not perverting it, I even of myself have understood that Peace, that which realizing, a Tathāgata can fall into no error.

There are, Bhaggava, certain recluses and brahmins who declare it as their traditional doctrine, that the beginning of things was the work of an overlord, of Brahmā.

To them have I gone and said: ‘Is it indeed true that the reverend teachers declare it as their traditional doctrine, that the beginning of things was the work of an overlord, of Brahmā?’

And they, so questioned, have answered: ‘Ay.’

And then I have said: ‘But how do the reverend teachers declare in their traditional opinion, that the beginning of things as the work of an overlord, of Brahmā was appointed?’

They, so asked by me, were unable to go any further into that matter, and in their confusion they asked it of me as a counter-question.

To whom I, being asked, have made answer: ‘There comes a time, friends, when, sooner or later, after the lapse of a long epoch, the world is dissolved and evolved.

When this takes place, beings have mostly been reborn in the World of Radiance.

There they dwell, made of mind, feeding on rapture, radiating light from themselves, traversing space, continuing in beauty, and thus they remain—for a long, long period of time.

Now there comes also a time, friends, when, sooner or later, this world-system begins to re-evolve.

When this happens, the abode of the Brahmās appears, but it is empty.

And some being or other, either because his span of years has passed, or because his merit is exhausted, deceases from that world of Radiance, and comes to life in the abode of the Brahmās.

And there also he lives, made of mind, feeding on rapture, radiating light from himself, traversing space, continuing in beauty; and thus does he remain for a long, long period of time.

Now there arises in him, from his dwelling there so long alone, a dissatisfaction and a longing: “Oh, would that other beings too might come to join me in this place!”

And just then, either because their span of years had passed, or because their merit was exhausted, other beings fall from the world of Radiance and appear in the abode of the Brahmās as companions to him; and in all respects, they lead a life like his.

On this, friends, that being who was first reborn thinks thus: “I am Brahmā, the great Brahmā, the Vanquisher, the Unvanquished, the All-Seeing, the Disposer, the venerable, the Maker, the Creator, the Chief, the Assigner, Master of myself, the Father of all that are and are to be.

By me are these beings created.

And why is that so?

A while ago I thought: Would that other beings too might come to this state of being!

Such was the aspiration of my mind, and lo! These beings did come.”

And those beings themselves who arose after him, they too think thus: “This worthy must be Brahmā, the great Brahmā, the Vanquisher, the Unvanquished, the All-Seeing, the Disposer, the venerable, the Maker, the Creator, the Chief, the Assigner, Master of myself, the Father of all that are and are to be.

By this Brahmā have we, good sirs, been created.

And why is that so?

Because he, as we see, arose here first, but we arose after him.

On this, friends, that being who first arose becomes longer lived, handsomer, and more powerful, but those who appeared after him become shorter lived, less comely, less powerful.

And it might well be, friends, that some other being, on deceasing from that state, should come to this state [on earth].

So come, he might go forth from the household life into the homeless state.

And having thus gone forth, by reason of ardour, effort, devotion, earnestness, perfected intellection, he reaches up to such rapt concentration, that with rapt mind he calls to mind his former dwelling-place, but remembers not what went before.

He says thus: “That worshipful Brahmā, that great Brahmā, the Vanquisher, the Unvanquished, the All-Seeing, the Disposer, the venerable, the Maker, the Creator, the Chief, the Assigner, Master of myself, the Father of all that are and are to be, he by whom we were created, he is permanent, constant, eternal, unchanging, and he will remain so for ever and ever.

But we who were created by that Brahmā, we have come hither all impermanent, transient, unstable, short-lived, destined to pass away.”

Thus was appointed the beginning of things which ye, sirs, declare as your traditional doctrine; to wit, that it has been wrought by an overlord, by Brahmā.’

And they have said: ‘Even so have we heard, friend Gotama, as the reverend Gotama has told us.’

But I, Bhaggava, know the beginning of things and I know not only that, but more than that.

And while I know that, I do not pervert it.

And as one not perverting it, I even of myself have understood that Peace, that which realizing, a Tathāgata can fall into no error.

There are, Bhaggava, certain recluses and brahmins who declare it as their doctrine, that the beginning of things was owing to a debauch of pleasure.

To them have I gone and said: ‘Is it indeed true that the reverend teachers declare it as their doctrine, that the beginning of things was owing to a debauch of pleasure?’

And they, so questioned, have answered, ‘Ay.’

And then have I said: ‘But how do the reverend teachers declare in their traditional opinion, that the beginning of things as being due to a debauch of pleasure was appointed?’

They, so asked by me, were unable to go any further into that matter, and in their confusion they asked it of me instead as a counter-question.

To them, I, on being asked, have made reply: ‘There are, friends, certain spirits called the Debauched-by-Pleasure. For ages they pass their time in mirth and sport of sensual lusts. In consequence thereof their self-control is corrupted, and thereby those devas decease from that state.

Now it might well be, friends, that some being or other, on deceasing from that state, should come hither, and that, having come hither, he should go forth from the household life into the homeless state. As a recluse he might, by reason of ardour, effort, devotion, earnestness, perfected intellection, he reach up to such rapt concentration, that with rapt mind he acquire the power of recollecting his previous birth, but not what preceded it.

And he would say to himself: “Those worshipful spirits who are not debauched-by-pleasure, they have not, for ages, passed their time in the mirth and sport of sensual lusts. Hence is their self-control not corrupted. Hence they decease not from their estate, but are permanent, constant, eternal, unchanging, and will so remain for ever and ever.

But we who were pleasure-debauched, we did pass our time for ages in the mirth and sport of sensual lusts, whereby our self-control became corrupted, so that we deceased from that estate, and are come to this form of life impermanent, transient, unstable, short-lived, deciduous.”

Thus was appointed the beginning of things which ye declare as being due to a debauch of pleasure.

And they have said: ‘Even so have we heard, friend Gotama, as the reverend Gotama has told us.’

But I, Bhaggava, know the beginning of things and I know not only that, but more than that. And while I know that, I do not pervert it. And as one not perverting it, I even of myself have understood that Peace, that which realizing, a Tathāgata can fall into no error.

There are, Bhaggava, certain recluses and brahmins, who declare as their traditional doctrine, that the beginning of things was owing to a debauch of mind.

To these have I gone and said: ‘Is it indeed true that the reverend teachers declare it as their traditional doctrine, that the beginning of things was owing to a debauch of mind?’

And they, so questioned, have answered: ‘Ay.’

And then have I said: ‘But how do the reverend teachers declare, in their opinion, that the beginning of things as being due to a debauch of mind was appointed?’

They, so asked by me, were unable to go any further into that matter, and in their confusion they asked it of me instead as a counter-question.

To whom I, being asked, have made answer: ‘There are, friends, certain spirits called the Debauched-in-Mind. For ages they burn with mutual envy; hence their thoughts regarding each other become depraved. Hence their bodies become feeble and their minds imbecile. They decease from that estate.

Now it might well be, friends, that some being or other, deceasing from that estate, should come hither, and being hither come, should go forth from the household life into the homeless state. As a recluse he might, by reason of ardour, effort, devotion, earnestness, perfected intellection, reach up to such rapt concentration, that with rapt mind he acquire the power of recollecting his previous birth, but not what preceded it.

And he would say to himself: “Those worshipful devas who are not debauched in mind, they have not for ages been burning with mutual envy. Hence their thoughts regarding each other have not become depraved. Hence have their bodies not become feeble, nor their minds imbecile.

Those devas decease not from that estate, but are permanent, constant, eternal, unchanging and will so remain for ever and ever.

But we who were debauched in mind, we did pass the time for ages burning with mutual envy, whereby our thoughts about each other became depraved, our bodies feeble, our minds imbecile. And we have deceased from that estate and are come hither, impermanent, transient, unstable, short-lived, deciduous.”

Thus was appointed the beginning of things which ye declare as being due to debauch of mind.’

And they have said: ‘Even so have we heard, friend Gotama, as the reverend Gotama has told us.’

But I, Bhaggava, know the beginnings of things and I know not only that, but more than that. And while I know that, I do not pervert it. And as one not perverting it, I even of myself have understood that Peace, that which realizing, a Tathāgata can fall into no error.

There are, Bhaggava, certain recluses and brahmins, who declare it as their doctrine, that the beginning of things was by chance.

To them have I gone and said: ‘Is it indeed true that the reverend teachers declare it as their traditional doctrine, that the beginning of things was by chance?

And they, so questioned, have answered: “Ay.”’

Then have I said to them: ‘But how do the reverend teachers declare that the beginning of things by chance, which you teach, was appointed?’

They, so asked by me, were unable to go any further into that matter, and in their confusion they asked it of me instead as a counter-question.

To whom, I, being asked, have made answer: ‘There are, friends, certain spirits called Unconscious Beings. As soon as an idea occurs to them they decease from that estate.

Now it may well be, friends, that some being or other having so deceased, comes to this form of life, and so come, goes forth from the household life into the homeless state. As a recluse he, by reason of ardour, effort, devotion, earnestness, perfected intellection, he reach up to such rapt concentration, that with rapt mind he acquire the power of recollecting his previous birth, but not what preceded it.

And he would say to himself: “Fortuitous in origin are the soul and the world. And why so? Because formerly I was not, now, having non-existed, I am changed into being.”

Thus was appointed the beginning of things as being due to chance, which you venerable teachers declare as your doctrine.’

And they have said: ‘Even so have we heard, friend Gotama, as the reverend Gotama has told us.’

But I, Bhaggava, know the beginning of things, and I know not only that, but more than that. And knowing it, I do not pervert it, and not perverting it, I, even of myself, have understood that Peace which, realizing, a Tathāgata can fall into no error.

Now I, Bhaggava, being of such an opinion, certain recluses and brahmins have falsely, emptily, mendaciously and unfairly accused me, saying: ‘Gotama, the recluse, is all wrong, and so are his bhikkhus.

He has said: “Whenever one has attained to the stage of deliverance, entitled the Beautiful, one then considers all things as repulsive.”

But this, Bhaggava, I have not said.

What I do say is this: ‘Whenever one attains to the stage of deliverance, entitled the Beautiful, one is then aware ’Tis lovely!’

“But it is they, venerable, that are all wrong, who impute to the Exalted One and to his bhikkhus, that they err. So delighted am I with the Exalted One that I believe he is able so to teach me that I may attain to and remain in the stage of deliverance, entitled the Beautiful.”

“Hard is it, Bhaggava, for you, holding, as you do, different views, other things approving themselves to you, you setting different aims before yourself, striving after a different aim, trained in a different system, to attain to and abide in the deliverance that is beautiful.

Look therefore to it, Bhaggava, that you foster well this faith of yours in me.”

“If, Sir, it be hard for me, holding different views, other things approving themselves to me, I setting different aims before myself, striving after a different aim, trained in a different system, to attain to and abide in the deliverance that is beautiful, then will I, at least, foster well my faith in the Exalted One.”

These things spake the Exalted One.

And Bhaggavagotta, the Wanderer, pleased in heart, took delight in his words.