Amber Larson, Dhr. Seven, Pat Macpherson (eds.), Maha-Saccaka Sutra: "The Longer Discourse to Saccaka" (MN 36) based on Ven. Thanissaro translation, Wisdom Quarterly
Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One (the Buddha) was staying in Vesali, at the Gabled Hall in the Great Forest. He dressed in the morning and with bowl and robe planned to enter Vesali on alms round.
Then Saccaka [saw-cha-kaw], a Nigantha (Jain wandering ascetic), while walking and wandering to exercise, went to the Gabled Hall in the Great Forest. Venenerable Ananda saw him coming from afar and said to the Blessed One, "Venerable sir, here comes Saccaka the Nigantha, a debater-philosopher who is well regarded by people. He is intent on disparaging the Buddha, Dharma, and [enlightened] Sangha. It would be good if the Blessed One would sit down for a moment out of sympathy (for this spiritual wanderer)."
So the Blessed One sat down on a prepared seat. Then Saccaka the Nigantha went to the Blessed One, exchanged courteous greetings, and sat respectfully to one side.
Saccaka said to the Blessed One: "There are, Master Gautama, some Brahmins and wandering ascetics who live committed to the development of the body but not to the development of the mind. Then they are touched by painful bodily feeling. It has happened in the past that when one (of them) was touched by bodily painful feeling, that person's thighs would grow rigid, the heart would burst, and hot blood would gush from the mouth. One would go mad and out of one's mind. With the mind subservient to the body, it fell under the power of the body. Why? It was because of a lack of development of the mind.
"There are some Brahmins and wandering ascetics who live committed to the development of the mind yet not the development of the body. They are touched by painful mental feeling. It has happened in the past that when one (of them) was touched by painful mental feeling, the thighs would grow rigid, the heart would burst, and hot blood would gush from the mouth. One would go mad and out of one's mind. With body subservient to the mind, it falls under the power of the mind. Why? It is because of a lack of development of the body.
"The thought has occurred to me that the disciples of Gautama, these wandering ascetics, live committed to the development of the mind yet not the development of the body."
The Buddha asked: "But what have you learned, Aggivessana, about the development of the body?"
"There are," Saccaka answered, "for example, Nanda Vaccha, Kisa Sankicca, and Makkhali Gosala. They are naked [1] ascetics, rejecting conventions, licking their hands when they eat, not responding when called, not staying when asked. They do not:
- consent to food brought to them
- nor food dedicated to them
- nor to invitations to accept a meal.
- They accept nothing from the mouth of a pot
- nor from the mouth of a bowl.
- They accept nothing from across a threshold
- across a stick
- across a pestle
- from two eating together
- from a pregnant woman
- from a nursing woman
- from a woman living with a man
- from where it is announced that food is to be distributed
- from where a dog is waiting or flies are buzzing.
- They take no fish [flesh] or [land animal] meat.
- They drink no liquor, wine, or fermented drink.
- They limit themselves to one house or one morsel a day
- or two houses and two morsels...
- seven houses and seven morsels.
- They live on one saucerful of food a day
- two...seven saucerfuls a day.
- They take food once a day
- once every two days...
- once every seven days
- and so on up to a fortnight
devoting themselves to regulating their intake of food."
The Buddha asked: "But, Aggivessana, do they survive on just that?"
"No, Master Gautama. Sometimes they eat outstanding regular food, chew outstanding special food, savor outstanding delicacies, and drink outstanding drinks. They rescue the body and its strength, fortify it, and fatten it up."
The Buddha said: "What they earlier abandoned, Aggivessana, they later gather up. This is how there is decrease and increase of the body. Now then what have you learned, Aggivessana, about the development of the mind?"
But Saccaka the Nigantha, when asked by the Blessed One about the development of the mind, was unable to respond.
Then the Blessed One said: "The ones you just described as developed in the development of body, that is not legitimate development of the body in the discipline of the noble ones [those who are enlightened in the Buddhist sense of the word, which begins at stream-entry as the first stage and culminates in the full enlightenment of arhatship].
"As you do not understand the development of the body, how would you understand the development of the mind? Nevertheless, as to how one is undeveloped in body and undeveloped in mind or developed in body and developed in mind, listen and pay close attention to this explanation."
"As you say, Master Gautama," Saccaka replied.
The Blessed One explained: "How is one undeveloped in body and undeveloped in mind? Say a pleasant feeling arises in an ordinary uninstructed worldling [an typical person with no knowledge of the Buddha's Dharma].
"On being touched by a pleasant feeling, such a person becomes impassioned by pleasure and is reduced to passion* for [further] pleasure. Then pleasant feeling subsides. With the ceasing of pleasant feeling, there arises some painful feeling.
[*"Passion" = craving, grasping, clinging, ardor, pining, yearning, attachment, ensnarement, obsession, unwillingness/inability to let go.]
"On being touched by a painful feeling, one sorrows, grieves, laments, beats the breast, and becomes distraught. When that pleasant feeling had arisen, it invaded the heart/mind and remained there because of a lack of development of body.
"When that painful feeling had arisen, it invaded mind/heart and remained there because of a lack of development of mind. This is how one is undeveloped in body and undeveloped in mind.
"How is one developed in body and developed in mind? Say a pleasant feeling arises in a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones [those instructed in the Buddha's Dharma].
"On being touched by a pleasant feeling, one does not become impassioned with pleasure and is not reduced to passion for [further] pleasure. Then pleasant feeling subsides. With the ceases of the pleasant feeling, there arises some painful feeling.
"On being touched with painful feeling, one does not sorrow, grieve, lament, beat the breast, or become distraught. When that pleasant feeling had arisen, it did not invade mind and remain because of the development of body.
"When that painful feeling had arisen, it did not invade mind and remain because of the development of mind. This is how one is developed in body and developed in mind."
The Buddha
"I have trust [have confidence, faith] in Master Gautama that Master Gautama is developed in body and developed in mind."
"Well, Aggivessana, this is certainly rude and presumptuous to speak such words. Nevertheless, here is a response [2].
"Ever since the shaving off of hair and beard, the putting on of saffron robes, and the going forth from home-life to a life [of a wandering ascetic] free of [worldly encumbrances such as a] home, it has not been possible for a pleasant feeling that has arisen to invade mind and remain, or for a painful feeling that has arisen to invade mind and remain."
"But perhaps there has never arisen in Master Gautama the sort of pleasant feeling that, having arisen, would invade the mind and remain or the sort of painful feeling that, having arisen, would invade the mind and remain" [3].
"Why would it not have, Aggivessana? Before enlightenment (awakening), when still an unawakened Bodhisattva [a "being (sattva) intent on enlightenment (bodhi)"], the thought occurred: 'Household life is confined, a dusty (contaminated) path. The gone forth life is wide open. It is not easy, living a home-bound life, to practice the supreme life (brahmacariya) as perfect and pure as a polished [conch] shell. What then if I, having shaved off hair and beard and donning the saffron robes [of a wandering ascetic or shramana], were to go forth from the household life into the left-home life?'
The Noble Quest
"Then later, when still young, black-haired, endowed with the [karmic] blessings of youth [and vigor] in the first stage of life, having shaved off hair and beard — although my parents wished otherwise and grieved with teary faces — I donned saffron robes and went forth from home life into the left-home life.
"Having gone forth on a quest for the skillful [karmically wholesome, good, beneficial, spiritually profitable], in search of that unexcelled state of supreme peace, I went to the renowned Yogi Alara Kalama and said: 'Friend, Kalama, I want to practice in this doctrine and discipline (
dhamma-vinaya).'
"When this was said, he replied, 'You may stay here, friend. This doctrine is such that a wise person may soon enter and abide in his teacher's own knowledge, having realized it for oneself through firsthand knowing.'
"It was not long before I learned that doctrine. As far as mere rote recitation and repetition, I could speak the words of [secondhand] knowledge, the words of the elders [the
theras of that tradition], and I could affirm that I knew-and-saw [firsthand] — I, along with others.
"Then I thought, 'It is not through mere confidence (faith) that Alara Kalama declares, "I have entered and abide in this doctrine (dhamma), having realized it for myself through direct knowledge." Certainly he dwells knowing-and-seeing this doctrine.' So I went to him and said, 'To what extent do you declare that you have entered and abide in this doctrine?' When this was said, he declared the sphere (dimension) of nothingness.
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| What must The Void be like, just Nothingness? |
[NOTE: Buddhist cosmology recognizes 31 major planes of existence, and countless worlds within these 31 categories. Rebirth into some of them is the result of reaching, establishing, or mastering attainment of the meditative absorptions. There are eight absorptions (jhanas) each corresponding to 24 planes depending on whether one reached, became established, or mastered that absorption -- could enter it with difficulty, middling, or with ease. The base of nothingness is one of these sphere, corresponding to a formless absorption. It is not nothing; it is the perception of the "sphere of nothingness," or what some intellectuals call "no-thingness," which has been reported to us as an actual place of desolation, of not yet formed things, as if outside of the universe or the portion not yet constructed, fabricated, assembled as in the chaotic beginning or ending of it. Rather than speculate about it, it is far better to reach it and see for oneself, as it is a real existing place, by direct realization of that corresponding jhana. It is not emptiness (shunyata), not egolessness/selflessless (anatta), though intellectuallly or philosophically it would be cleaner and easier to conceive of it that way. It is not that way. Because we can see it directly, it is better to see it directly and avoid misconceiving of it.]
"I thought, 'Not only does Alara Kalama have confidence (conviction), persistence, mindfulness, samadhi ("right letting go," super-consciousness, purified-concentration), and wisdom (prajna, panna, insight, discernment). I, too, have confidence, persistence, mindfulness, samadhi, and wisdom.
"'What if I were to endeavor to realize for myself the doctrine (dhamma, truth, suchness, thing) that Alara Kalama declares he has entered and dwells in, after having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.'
"Then it was not long before I entered and abided in that doctrine (that teaching, that truth, that path), having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. I went to him and said, 'Friend, Kalama, is this the extent to which you have entered and abided in this doctrine, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge?'
"'Yes, friend...'
"'This, friend, is the extent to which I, too, have entered and abide in this doctrine, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge.'
"'It is a gain for us, friend, a great gain for us that we have [in each other] such a companion in the supreme life. So the doctrine I declare I have entered and abide in, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge, is the doctrine you declare you have entered and abide in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge.
"And the doctrine you declare you have entered and abide in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge, is the doctrine I declare I have entered and abide in, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. The doctrine I know is the doctrine you know, and the doctrine you know is the doctrine I know. As I am, so are you, and as you are, so am I. Come, friend, let us now lead this community together.'
"In this way did Alara Kalama, my teacher, placed me, his pupil, on the same level as himself and paid me the greatest honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This doctrine [of his] does not lead to disenchantment [disillusionment], dispassion [willingness to release, let go, and stop clinging], cessation, stilling, direct knowledge, awakening (bodhi = enlightenment), and nirvana (complete freedom from all bounds), but only to rebirth (reappearance, rearising) in the sphere (dimension of nothingness.'
"Therefore, dissatisfied with that doctrine, I left.
"In search of the skillful, seeking that unexcelled state of supreme peace, I went to the renowned Yogi Uddaka Ramaputta [Rama's son, Rama's student] and said: 'Friend, Uddaka, I want to practice in this doctrine and discipline.'
"When this was said, he replied, 'You may stay here, friend. This doctrine is such that a wise person may soon enter and abide in his own teacher's knowledge, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.'
"It was not long before I learned the doctrine. As far as mere rote recitation and repetition, I could speak words of knowledge [secondhand], words of the elders, and I could affirm that I knew-and-saw — I, along with others.
"I thought, 'It was not through mere confidence that Rama [the teacher of Ramaputta] declared, "I have entered and abide in this doctrine, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge." Certainly he abided knowing-and-seeing this doctrine.' So I went to Uddaka [Rama's son and student] and said, 'To what extent did Rama declare that he had entered and abided in this doctrine?'
"When this was said Uddaka declared the sphere (dimension) of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.
"I thought, 'Not only did Rama have confidence, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom. I, too, have confidence, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom. What if I were to endeavor to realize for myself the doctrine (truth, thing, dhamma) that Rama declared he entered and abided in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge?'
"Then it was not long before I entered and abided in that doctrine, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. I went to Uddaka [student, scion of Rama] and asked, 'Friend, Uddaka, is this the extent to which Rama entered and abided this doctrine, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge?'
"'Yes, friend...'
"'This, friend, is the extent to which I, too, have entered and abide in this doctrine, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge.'
[Rama then said:] "'It is a gain for us, friend, a great gain for us that we have such a companion in the supreme life. So the doctrine Rama declared he entered and abided in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge, is the doctrine you declare you have entered and abide in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge.
"And the doctrine you declare you have entered and abide in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge, is the doctrine Rama declared he entered and abided in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge. The doctrine he knew is the doctrine you know, and the doctrine you know is the doctrine he knew. As he was, so are you, and as you are, so was he. Come, friend, lead this community.'
"In this way did Uddaka Ramaputta, my companion in the supreme life, place me in the position of teacher and pay me great honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment (awakening), nor to nirvana, but only to reappearance in the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.' Dissatisfied with that dhamma, I left.
"In search of what might be skillful, seeking the unexcelled state of sublime peace, I wandered by stages in the kingdom of Magadha and came to the military town of Uruvela. There I saw some delightful countryside, with an inspiring forest grove, a clear-flowing river with fine, delightful banks, and villages for going on alms on all sides. The thought occurred to me, 'How delightful is this countryside, with its inspiring forest grove, clear-flowing river with fine, delightful banks, and villages for going on alms on all sides. This is just right for the striving of a clansman [a Scythian/Sakyian] intent on striving.' So I sat down right there, thinking, 'This is just right for striving.'
Three similes
"Then these three similes — spontaneous, never before heard — occurred to me: Suppose there were a wet, sappy piece of wood in water, and a person were to come along with a fire-stick thinking, 'I'll start a fire. I'll produce heat.' Now what do you think? Would one be able to start a fire and produce heat by rubbing a fire-stick on wet, sappy wood in water?"
"No, Master Gautama, because that wood is wet and sappy; moreover, it is in water. Eventually the person would reap only weariness and disappointment."
"So it is with any Brahmin or wandering ascetic who does not live withdrawn from sensuality in body and mind, whose desire, craving, infatuation, thirst, and fever for sensuality is not relinquished and stilled within, whether or not one feels painful, racking, piercing feelings due to striving [for enlightenment], one is incapable of knowledge, vision, and unexcelled awakening. This was the first simile — spontaneous, never before heard — that occurred to me.
"Then a second simile — spontaneous, never before heard — occurred to me. Suppose there were a wet, sappy piece of wood on land far from water, and a person were to come along with a fire-stick thinking, 'I'll start a fire. I'll produce heat.' Now what do you think? Would that person be able to start a fire and produce heat by rubbing the fire-stick on wet, sappy wood on land far from water?"
"No, Master Gautama, because the wood is wet and sappy, even though it is on land far from water. Eventually that person would reap only weariness and disappointment."
"So it is with any Brahmin or wandering ascetic who lives withdrawn from sensuality in body only, but whose desire, craving, infatuation, thirst, and fever for sensuality is not relinquished and stilled within, whether or not one feels painful, racking, piercing feelings due to striving, one is incapable of knowledge, vision, and unexcelled awakening. This was the second simile — spontaneous, never before heard — that occurred to me.
"Then a third simile — spontaneous, never before heard — occurred to me. Suppose there were a dry, sapless piece of wood on land far from water, and a person were to come along with a fire-stick thinking, 'I'll start a fire. I'll produce heat.' Now what do you think? Would one be able to start a fire and produce heat by rubbing the fire-stick on dry, sapless wood on land?"
"Yes, Master Gautama, because the wood is dry and sapless; moreover, it is on land far from water."
"So it is with any Brahmin or wandering ascetic who lives withdrawn from sensuality in body and mind, whose desire, craving, infatuation, thirst, and fever for sensuality is relinquished and stilled within, whether or not one feels painful, racking, piercing feelings due to striving, one is capable of knowledge, vision, and unexcelled awakening. This was the third simile — spontaneous, never before heard — that occurred to me.
"I thought, 'Suppose I, clenching my teeth and pressing tongue against the roof of my mouth, were to beat down, constrain, and crush mind with mind.' So clenching my teeth and pressing my tongue against the roof of my mouth, I beat down, constrained, and crushed mind with mind. Just as a strong man seizing a weaker man by the head or neck or shoulders, would beat him down, constrain, and crush him -- in the same way, I beat down, constrained, and crushed mind with mind. As I did so, sweat poured from my armpits. And although tireless persistence was aroused in me and unmuddled mindfulness established, my body was aroused and uncalm because of that painful exertion. But the painful feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.
"I thought, 'Suppose I were to become absorbed in the meditation of non-breathing [which happens effortlessly in the meditative absorption known as the fourth jhana].' So I stopped in-breaths and out-breaths in my nose and mouth. As I did so, there was a loud roaring of winds coming out my ears, just like the loud roar of winds coming out of a smith's bellows... So I stopped in-breaths and out-breaths in my nose and mouth and ears. As I did so, extreme pains sliced through my head, just as if a strongman were slicing my head open with a sharp sword... Extreme pains arose in my head, just as if a strongman were tightening a strap made of tough leather around my head... Extreme pains carved up my stomach, just as if a butcher or butcher's apprentice were to carve up the stomach of an ox... There was an extreme burning in my body, just as if two strongmen, grabbing a weaker man by the arms, were to roast and broil him over a pit of hot embers. And although tireless persistence was aroused in me and unmuddled mindfulness established, my body was aroused and uncalm because of that painful exertion. But the painful feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.
"Devas seeing me said, 'The wandering ascetic Gautama is dead.' Other devas said, 'He is not dead, but he's dying.' Others said, 'He's neither dead nor dying, for he's an arhat, and this is the way arhats live.' CONTINUED IN PART 2
NOTES
1. Acelaka is sometimes translated as "naked." However, the description of acelaka ascetics in MN 45 shows that they might wear garments made out of items other than ordinary cloth, such as tree bark, antelope hides, strips of antelope hide, kusa-grass, bark, wood-shavings, head-hair, animal wool, or owl's wings.
2. In other words, Saccaka has been impolite and excessively familiar in claiming to know about the Buddha's personal attainments, even though his claim is presented as praise. For other cases in which what sounds like praise is criticized for being presumptuous, see MN 127, AN 3.60, and AN 4.35.
3. Saccaka is here implying that the reason the Buddha's mind has not been invaded by pleasant or painful feelings has nothing to do with any special attainment or quality of the Buddha's mind. Instead, it must be because potentially intrusive feelings have simply never arisen in him. This paragraph is mistranslated in both MLS and MLDB.
