Points of Controversy: “Thusness”

Shwe Zan Aung and Mrs. C.A.F. Rhys Davids (trans.), Tathatākathā, Points of Controversy 19.5, Of “Thusness”; Amber Larson, Dhr. Seven, Pat Macpherson (eds.), Wisdom Quarterly

Controverted point: That the fundamental characteristics of all things (sabba-dhamma) are unconditioned.

Theravādin: (PTS cs 19.5.1) Do you then identify those fundamental characteristics or “thusness” ["suchness," tathatā] with nirvana, the Shelter…the Goal, the Past-Deceased, the Ambrosial? Or are there two “unconditioneds”? You deny both alternatives, but you must assent to one or the other.

If to the latter, I ask, Are there two kinds of Shelters and so on? And is there a boundary or…interstice between them? (PTS cs 19.5.2) Again, assuming a materiality (rūpatā) of matter or body, is not materiality unconditioned?

You assent. Then I raise the same difficulties as before. (PTS cs 19.5.3) I raise them, too, if you admit a “hedonality” of feeling, a “perceivability” of perception, a saṅkhāratā or co-efficiency of mental coefficients, a consciousness of being conscious.

If all these be unconditioned, are there then six categories of “unconditioneds”? (Uttarāpathaka: PTS cs 19.5.4) But if I am wrong, is the “thusness” of all things the Five Aggregates [clung to as self] taken together?

Theravādin: Yes.

Uttarāpathaka: Then that “thusness” of all things is unconditioned. Source